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I received an interesting comment today on an earlier post, My Food Philosophy. I started to reply to the comment in the comment section, but quickly realized that a separate post would be better. There’s just too much to answer in one little comment.
Here is Stephanie’s comment:
I am curious as to why people become vegans… I mean veganism is very unnatural in lieu of the fact that your body needs protein. I happen to have the pleasure of living on a farm where we raise all of our animals and grow all of our own vegetables (much better and healthier than anything you can find in the market). It takes a lot of love and hard work but our family comes together and makes it through. It is important to eat meat in order to receive a number of important nutrients. I find it disturbing that a mother would impose her eating beliefs on her children…I suppose someone has time to explore all of these things when they do not work for a living. If you follow the eating you must also follow the lifestyle, no eggs, no fish, no leather, no fur coats. This is detrimental for both my family and I because your habits are hurting our livelihood. Besides the fact that once you have children it isn’t about you anymore it is solely about them.
Why do people become vegan?
I can’t answer this question for everyone — I can only tell you what influenced my decision. Initially, I was intrigued by it as a cleansing, weight-loss philosophy. As I read more and did more research, I became aware of more important benefits of a plant-based diet. Right now, whole body health and making less of a footprint on Mother Earth are my main two reasons for eating (mostly) vegan.
“…veganism is very unnatural in lieu of the fact that your body needs protein.”
Yes, the body needs protein, but it doesn’t necessarily need animal-based protein. A human can get enough protein from beans, legumes, lentils… In addition, we [Americans] need a lot less protein that we’ve been led to believe.
“I happen to have the pleasure of living on a farm where we raise all of our animals and grow all of our own vegetables…”
That’s awesome, Stephanie. It sounds ideal. Unfortunately, you’re the minority. I’m not as lucky as you, and I can’t be sure what has happened to my food on the way to the supermarket and farmer’s market. I can’t even be sure what happened to it {what went into it} before it got to the supermarket!
“It is important to eat meat in order to receive a number of important nutrients.”
Actually, this isn’t true. The only nutrient that we can’t get from a plant-based diet is vitamin B-12. As long as vegans take supplements for B-12, and are eating a variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts, etc, they should be getting all of their nutritional needs met. That’s not to say it’s easy. Vegans need to be very careful to get all their nutritional requirements met, but the exact same thing could be said about omnivores.
“I find it disturbing that a mother would impose her eating beliefs on her children…”
In a previous post, found here, I explained how I never imposed my vegan lifestyle on my family. To this day, my kids (and husband) drink milk, eat grilled cheese sandwiches, scrambled eggs, whatever. However, we all eat dinner together, and we often –not always– eat vegan and/or vegetarian meals for supper. We haven’t cut out meat, chicken, and fish entirely, but we eat much less of it.
“I suppose someone has time to explore all of these things when they do not work for a living.”
{Smiling} I suppose this was a dig at me and my stay-at-home-mom status. All I can say to this, Stephanie, is that you must not be a mom. For if you were a mom, you would know how difficult it is to have little ones who need you all the time, almost every minute of the day. Trust me, there are days when I wished I worked outside of the home. Every mom works, whether she’s getting paid for it or not. By the way, I think you should read this.
“If you follow the eating you must also follow the lifestyle, no eggs, no fish, no leather, no fur coats.”
I’m not so sure I agree with you on this. Personally, I would rather each person made an effort, no matter how big or small, to reduce his or her footprint on Mother Earth. I would hate for someone to think, “Well, I can’t do it [vegan] perfectly, so I won’t do it at all!” As for me, since I’m more of a flexitarian than a die-hard vegan, I rarely eat eggs and fish, but I do eat them. I try not to buy leather, but I do wear ugg boots! And fur coats? I’m neither that cold or that haute-couture. ; )
“This is detrimental for both my family and I because your habits are hurting our livelihood.”
I’m sorry for this, and it’s unintentional. However, it’s my job to keep my family safe and healthy, as you look out for yours.
“…once you have children it isn’t about you anymore it is solely about them.”
I agree with you 100%. And it’s because of my children that I’m much more vested in taking care of this one earth that we live on. I’m scared and I’m sad about what we’re doing to the earth, and I’m wondering where and how my {future} grandchildren will live.
Stephanie, I want to thank you for your comment. It’s always interesting to read responses to posts, no matter whether the commenter shares my opinion or has a different viewpoint. Lastly, I want to repeat something that I wrote in the original post:
I don’t believe there is a once size fits all diet for everyone. Each person needs to find what works for them and make their own rules. I may believe in all of the above, but I hold no judgement on how you eat.
My food philosophy works for me, but it may not work for everyone, and I wouldn’t dare look down on you for making different choices.
Anyone else want to chime in? As always, I’m curious to what others think.
{ 17 comments… read them below or add one }
Kirwin, this is such a well-articulated, thoughtful response! I love that you took the opportunity to make this a “teachable” moment, instead of simply responding to Stephanie’s comments privately. I, too, find it interesting to hear other points of view on the issue of veganism/vegetarianism. And I also agree with you that what works for one person might not work for everyone…
However, without trying to stir the pot – or high-jack your post! – I would like to add a few things in response to some of Stephanie’s statements.
First, I’d like to address the comment: “I find it disturbing that a mother would impose her eating beliefs on her children…” I have to wonder, does it not occur to people that regardless of the type of diet that one feeds his/her family, a certain set of beliefs/values will always be “imposed” on them? Vegans clearly don’t have a monopoly on teaching values to others through diet/lifestyle. What anyone chooses to serve their family and friends for dinner teaches something, whether one is conscious of it or not…
I happen to embrace veganism because it teaches compassion. It helps people to live in a way that’s true to their values - whether those values include the importance of animal welfare, creating a more sustainable environment, or maintaining a healthy diet. The happy side-effect is that it also leads to a lower likelihood of heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, a variety of cancers, and many other health problems. Seems like something that most of us would like to pass on to our families, no?
Second, I’d like to comment on the perception that: “…veganism is very unnatural in lieu of the fact that your body needs protein.” Of course our bodies need protein, but it is absolutely NOT essential that we consume protein in animal form. It is essential, however, that we consume adequate amounts of fiber, calcium, vitamin C, folate, etc., many of which are seriously lacking in the Standard American Diet (aka: “SAD” - I’m not making that up!).
Fortunately, there are plenty of great sources of protein in a veg diet, and none of them contains cholesterol (unlike their animal-based counterparts), which we don’t need to ingest since our bodies make it naturally. Likewise, as mentioned in the post, we need far less protein than we are lead to believe. And, in fact, studies show that to much protein can lead to a host of health problems. (One of which results in interference with the absorption and retention of calcium in our bones…)
Finally, I’d like to discuss the notion that: “If you follow the eating you must also follow the lifestyle, no eggs, no fish, no leather, no fur coats.” Just as there are many different types of omnivores, there are many different types of vegans. Some eschew all foods/products that come from animals/animal secretions, while others don’t eat animals, but do wear leather. Similarly, some omnivores eat chicken and fish, but not red meat, while others eat all types of meat, but very few vegetables.
There is no such thing as a perfect vegan. And that’s okay. Likewise, vegans don’t get to claim the moral high ground – you can obviously be a terrible person and still be a vegan. (Plus, a superiority complex isn’t helpful for anyone.) To me, veganism is about making a choice, every day, to do the best that you can – keeping keeping in mind that just because you can’t do everything, it doesn’t mean that you should do nothing. Even a small step towards consuming fewer animals/animal products is a huge step in a good direction: it’s a step towards a more compassionate lifestyle; a step towards a better environment; and a step towards a healthier life.
Isn’t that something we should all be striving for?
Ack!
I guess I got a little fired up because there are a few typos in my comment (ie: “lead” instead of “led,” and “to,” instead of “too” in the sixth paragraph).
Sorry - it’s SO annoying, especially when I’m trying to make a point!
Wow. I think Stephanie disqualified herself when she jabbed at your sahm status. My personal belief is that part of the reason our country is so unhealthy is because women left the home.
To be honest after a lot of research I don’t believe that a vegan diet is *optimal* for anyone, especially children. (see: http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html) However, you can make that point without personally attacking someone who obviously cares for their family enough to serve them as you do. That being said I do have a lot of respect for those who choose vegetarian or vegan lifestyles. It shows a mindfulness about what you are eating and where it comes from.
Finally I think it is a misnomer to say that “we shouldn’t impose our diets on our children.” The same goes for religion. People often say that we need to disconnect our religion from our politics, education, etc. You can’t! When we have core beliefs and values they effect every decision we make and how we live our lives. Our children see this and pick up on it. Whether it is food or religion we as parents will always “impose” our beliefs on our children because that set of beliefs is what we see as right.
Ok I’m done ranting now.
Wow, you responded to her comment so graciously. Appreciated learning more about your thought process–you articulated it so well!
For ethical reasons, as well as health reasons (I have RA, and generally have far fewer flares if I stay away from dairy) I have only recently begun my own journey toward vegetarianism, but I do love meat and so I find this post very interesting.
I also think it’s a shame that Stephanie didn’t try to make her points in a more gracious manner and, though I know it’s an extremely unpopular opinion, I agree whole-heartedly with Shannon that we can lay a large portion of the blame for society’s problems on the fact that women have left the home to join the work force en masse.
I must also say that I find Stephanie’s comment that she finds it disturbing that someone would impose their eating beliefs on their children, to be more than a little strange. As parents, we impose all our beliefs on our children, don’t we? I feel that is not only natural, but is as it should be. When our kids are young, we not only impose, but also usually enforce our beliefs upon them in an effort to teach them the difference between what we feel is right and wrong, and with the hope and expectation that our own beliefs will demonstrate and encourage morality, strong ethics, tolerance and compassion in our kids so they grow up to be a happy, healthy, contributing members of society.
Wow! Very well said. I have both worked as a mom and stayed home with my children and i can say without a doubt that staying home is MUCH harder than working!
Oh Kirwin, well done for responding to this so patiently!
It is lovely that Stephanie and her family were able to buy or inherit a farm where they could rear animals and grow veg. I’d love to do the same. Unfortunately, like a lot of people, I will never have the money to buy a large enough property to do this. I live in a flat because that’s what I can afford. Stephanie needs to realise that very few are in the privileged position of having this option to feed themselves and their families.
I find it very sad that she condemned you as a person who imposes your dietry choices on your children when you have stated elsewhere on your blog on several occasions that this is not the case. She really should have checked her facts before making such a strong and hurtful statement.
Thirdly, I found the comment about how you ‘must follow’ the other rules of veganism such as wearing no leather and fur etc really quite strange. I wonder why exactly? Did you ever say you were a strict vegan? I don’t recall reading that. What happens when you break the vegan rules? Do vegan police pull up, lock you in a vegan prison and feed you on mung beans for month until you have fully repented? Odd, odd, odd.
I was truly amazed by the comment about your ‘habits’ being ‘detrimental’ to her lifestyle. Why is your responsibility to support Stephanie’s lifestyle and choices? She certainly doesn’t seem to support or respect yours. Are you located nearby? Could you be buying meat from her farm or something? Surely there are enough meat and veg consumers in the world that it makes little difference if a small minority follow a vegan diet. I’d love to buy organic meat from a local farm. Fact is, I can’t afford it - like a lot of other people. I think it is great that you care about where food is sourced. Not everyone has Stephanie’s resources at their disposal.
Live and live I say.
oh boy. I don’t have the time this morning to write what I would really like too. I just don’t get this. I do get your response though. It was AWESOME. Imagine how she would respond to a raw food mom imposing a raw food diet on her children!!
it really irks me when people write comments like that!
What a great response to a comment that was meant to be hurtful. I really appreciated your explanation. I am not a vegan, but it everyone’s choice. As for the SAHM comment, well, you answered it much more graciously than I could have.
I’m impressed with the way you handled this comment. Instead of ignoring it or going out with guns blazing, you handled it with such grace.
As someone raised vegetarian (lacto-ovo = dairy and eggs ok), now mostly vegetarian with food-sensitive-nursing-imposed avoidance of dairy, it seems to me we all get to choose how we eat at any given stage in life.
My parents made this choice for our family based on: 1. Environmental concerns (it takes more resources (water, land, fossil fuel) to raise and produce animal products) 2. Health (this was a time when hormones in meat were the norm) 3. Financial (eating a plant-based diet is much less expensive for most of us not living on a farm). Not because we were trying to harm the family farmer or rancher.
As many previous posters pointed out, when it comes to religion or political beliefs, no one bats an eye when we expose our families to some (or one) and not others.
I do believe we are “guests” when commenting on others’ blogs and we should behave with the same respect we would face-to-face, without condescension and snarkiness. Kirwin, you did handle this with such grace, composure and an open heart.
Wow, great points here! I love that you stress it’s not one size fits all-everyone has to make thier choices in life and it’s not my job to judge the decisions others make.
And the sahm thing cracks me up-I’d love to have some leisure time to research things, or just read in general! All of my time is usually spent on three kids and the house!
You gave a very gracious answer…Well done!!
Great response. I can understand her point of view being a small scale farmer. I think the sahm comment might have been unnecessary and perhaps she is misinformed about her nutrition facts, but whatever. I recently read an excellent book about a small scale sheep farmer and the way factory farms work vs. small scale farms. It is called The Compassionate Carnivore and I highly recommend it.
Almost all of the meat/chicken/pork, etc in our supermarkets is raised and slaughtered by factory farms and factory slaughterhouses, not by people like Stephanie. If I had a Stephanie nearby I might eat meat, but I don’t so I choose not to eat it. I also choose not to buy leather products, except for shoes because it is difficult to find shoes made out of alternate materials in some cases (ie; dressy shoes).
As for imposing our views on our children, isn’t that what parents do? Whether we like it or not? We set the examples in everything we do. Religion is another example - would anyone consider that to be an imposition on a child? I think most people find the opposite to be a problem - raising children without religion.
I think it is important to teach our children the effect we are having on the earth, on the animals, and on humanity when we make certain choices in life.
@ jd~
Thank you so much for responding to this comment. You know much more about veganism than I do, and I value your knowledge. I agree with everything that you said, and you said it well. Has anyone ever told you that you should go into law? ; )
@ Shannon~
I value your response to this, too. I find your weekly posts on Food Roots: Where does your food come from? informative and valuable for all — vegans, vegetarians, omnivores,…everyone. Thanks for sending that link — I’ll read it in a little bit. BTW, I agree that Stephanie kind of shot herself in the foot by making that jab about SAHM status. Unfortunately for her, it took away from her credibility.
@ Jo~
Thank you. I won’t mention how many times I deleted and edited my post so that I remained “gracious.” ; )
@ Lissa~
Welcome! I’m glad you de-lurked to leave a comment here, on this somewhat *heated* issue. I agree about the strangeness of Stephanie’s comment about me “imposing” my view on my children. Afterall, it’s true — I impose all my beliefs on my children, daily! : )
@ Mel~
Welcome. : )
I think it would be difficult to be a working-mom, too. However, I think many people –not all– grossly underestimate what stay-at-home-moms do on a daily basis.
@ shoestring~
I think that Stephanie is in an ideal situation, too. Can you imagine having all that fresh (I’m assuming organic) food at your fingertips?! I don’t believe I’m even in the same state as her, but I can’t be sure — the email address she left isn’t valid.
@ Denise~
I’m smiling at your reply. And no, I can’t imagine what she would think if I started my family eat Raw. ; )
@ Amy~
Thank you. Yes, it is each person’s choice. I tried to be gracious about the SAHM comment — I know that many people think I eat bon bons while watching Oprah all day. ; )
@ Marci~
Thank you. I didn’t want to ignore it, but I also didn’t want to resort to “digs.” I wonder if Stephanie has even bothered to come read my response, as well as the many responses in the comments.
@ Amy @ Feasibly Fit Mom~
Good point. Due to fertility issues, my SIL is currently avoiding all gluten, dairy, and sugar…People are always making adjustments in their diet, for various reasons. I’m sure Stephanie’s family (and many ranchers) started to do really well when the whole South Beach & Atkins fad spread.
@ Gina~
You spend all your time with the kids and working on your house? But when do you find time for the bon bons and rag mags? In all honesty, I never thought it would be so *constant* as it is. {And I wouldn’t change it for the world…}
@ Dawn~
Thank you! : )
@ Harriet~
That book sounds wonderful. I think you’re right — we don’t all have a local farmer, so we do what’s best for ourselves. And yes, as parents, we impose our views or morals our *everything* on our children all the time.
What a graceful yet informative response!
Stephanie’s comment, “I suppose someone has time to explore all of these things when they do not work for a living.” not only is a jab at SAHMs but an admission that she hasn’t researched these things as thoroughly as you have–she’s making an excuse, saying she’s too busy to do it, and trying to make that look good by implying it’s crucial for her to do other things. At least, that’s how it looks to me.
I’m a mother employed outside the home, and I thoroughly agree with you that being in charge of children all day IS WORK! As I see it, I have two jobs, and while I do one of them I pay somebody to do the other one.
A couple of commenters blamed unhealthy American diets on women working outside the home. I have two things to say about that:
1. Men can cook, too. The problem is not WOMEN’s employment but that when all adults in the family are out of the house all day, nobody has time for elaborate food preparation. (My family does pretty well with healthy eating because both parents cook, we’ve learned a lot of shortcuts, and we often make big batches of stuff on the weekends…but it IS a bigger struggle than if one of us was home all day.)
2. The historical trends actually are the other way around. Convenience foods and highly processed foods were launched big-time after World War II, when women were RETURNING to the home to make jobs available to men returning from the war. For women who followed the trends of using those foods (and new labor-saving cleaning appliances), being a SAHM was easier than before, and that’s one of the big things that made SAHMs restless and discontented so that after a while they began returning to the labor force.
Hey Kirwin, picture me standing up and clapping for you. I’ll not actually do it considering our neighbours already think I’m crazy on accounts of handstands and Flashdancing (standing up and clapping at my laptop would be the limit me thinks). I am doing it in spirit though. This is a great, fair and thoughtful response that we can all learn from.
First of all, I respect Stephanie’s opinion and her need to express it. This is her right. I don’t, however, agree on a number of fronts (and I come from a farming family).
Just like it’s Stephanie’s right to have an opinion and express that opinion on this topic, so too do you have every right to feed/clothe/shelter/etc yourself and your family in whatever fashion you feel is right for you and them. You said it best, diet/food/health and fitness does not have a “one size fits all” answer. What works for one, doesn’t work for the other and it’s up to each of us to find what works best for our personality, lifestyle, values and circumstances.
And when will the planet realise that parenting is the HARDEST and least appreciated job on planet earth. I am not a mother but I have nothing but respect for those of you who are.
Good on you for sticking to your guns, helping us learn and doing what’s right for you and your family Kirwin. Thanks also to Stephanie for making us think even more about this topic regardless of whether we agree with her comment or not.